Some Goodness

[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: A couple weeks ago, I was in a CEO workshop and got pulled into a sidebar with three other leaders. All three of them said basically the same thing: the old SEO is dead. But not one of them could tell me what replaces it. They knew they were supposed to optimize for AI, but nobody actually knew what that meant.

[00:00:17] Richard Ellis: Is it a website thing, a content thing, a strategy thing? Do we fire our agency? My guest today has spent the last two years building the answer to that question. Welcome to Some Goodness, where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C-level leaders maximize their impact.

[00:00:36] Richard Ellis: My guest today is Michael Epps Utley, the founder and CEO of GoEpps, a digital marketing agency he's run for fourteen years out of East Nashville. Before that, he was building websites at the dawn of the commercial Internet, which means he's now watched every version of getting found online, from directory listings to keyword stuffing to whatever we're calling this.

[00:00:57] Richard Ellis: Eight days ago, he launched AEO by [00:01:00] GoEpps, a product that measures how AI systems actually see our brand Well, Michael, welcome to Some Goodness.

[00:01:08] Michael Epps Utley: Thank you. Yeah, Richard, great to be with you today. Thanks so much.

[00:01:11] Richard Ellis: So we'd love to dive right in. I think I was telling you a little bit earlier that I was in a CEO workshop a couple of weeks ago, and several leaders all told me the same thing.

[00:01:21] Richard Ellis: They were like, "Hey, we think SEO is dead." But the interesting thing is nobody had an answer for what, what did that really mean, or what do you replace it with? So let's start there. What's actually going on these days with SEO and findability?

[00:01:34] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah. What I'm saying on all podcasts is, "SEO is dead. Long live SEO."

[00:01:38] Michael Epps Utley: And the new, the new king is AEO and GEO being added to SEO. So I think, I think what's appropriate is that SEO is treated as the umbrella, but we have some new additions that are sort of changing what it means. And I really think that all of this, what we're really talking about is, where's the open market?

[00:01:57] Michael Epps Utley: And I think SEO, when we see it as just [00:02:00] one channel, I think that's a very short-term way of seeing it that has a lot more to do with the prominence of Google than actually brand discovery. So yeah, overall, I think SEO is not going anywhere. We're adding AEO to the picture. It's becoming a part of it. And so e- two things are happening at once.

[00:02:18] Michael Epps Utley: SEO is diminished in the Google search results page, but I think that's a really separate question and is maybe more of a temporary thing. I think some things are gonna shake out that are gonna change that. But overall, yeah, I think it is different. It's a different world. There are different tools, but the open market's not gonna go away.

[00:02:37] Michael Epps Utley: It's built into how we work. It's built into how we think. And unless there's a big nation of people out there who want somebody to do thinking for them, I don't think SEO's gonna die.

[00:02:48] Richard Ellis: Got it. That's helpful. And I wanna double-click into the terms a little bit. So SEO, search engine optimization. We gotta optimize for the search engines out there.

[00:02:56] Richard Ellis: Naturally, we think about Google, right? It's funny to think about the old [00:03:00] search engines that kinda died away. But AEO, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's answer engine optimization, and GEO's generative engine optimization. They sound similar, but what are the distinctions that we may need to care about?

[00:03:13] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah. I think definitions are good, and it's hard to kinda get to the essential element of each of these because it is so new. But I would think of it as SEO is for ranking in search, AEO is for ranking in answers. And GEO is for ranking and generated answers, meaning their sources, so ranking and sources.

[00:03:32] Michael Epps Utley: And so that's probably the current state of affairs. We really do need functionally a term for organic discovery. Mm-hmm. And I think it, it, what makes the most sense to me, because I've been doing this for twenty-five years, is SEO. I equate SEO as the open space of something, but that's really more my choice.

[00:03:52] Michael Epps Utley: It could be that AEO becomes the more dominant thing, and if it does, that's great, but I think we'll see it as the continuation of SEO, not [00:04:00] something totally disconnected or separate.

[00:04:01] Richard Ellis: Thank you for that. I think just kind of thinking about, you know, searching versus answers versus generated responses and s- backed up with sources, I think that brings a lot of clarity that, that I was missing anyway.

[00:04:12] Richard Ellis: When you think about a user behavior, I mean, these days I don't go to Google to search anymore. I just, I usually start with my favorite AI, right? Either Claude or ChatGPT or Gemini or something like that. Is that where the market's moving, and does that make a difference as we think about, you know, where people go interact and find answers or find sources or find help or collaborate?

[00:04:32] Michael Epps Utley: It's absolutely changed everything in the last year or so. Now, when we're producing something for a website, like a new page of content We're not just thinking about keywords and how to be found for people using a search engine. We're also thinking, what do we bring that's new that answers a question nobody else is answering so we can be an answer for people?

[00:04:54] Michael Epps Utley: We're also thinking about, how can we be an authoritative source for something new? And so I just got off a [00:05:00] call with my team for a project we're doing for a law firm, and so one of the things that we're, we're doing for them is data journalism. We're using existing data out there in the world, but then seeing it the way that we see it, and taking it through our lens and articulating that on their website as a blog post.

[00:05:17] Michael Epps Utley: So it's not that SEO sort of goes away, but it's changing what matters the most as we bridge these two worlds of answers and search results. And so, yeah, I think, I think AEO is gonna build on top of SEO to provide new ways for people to get answers instead of doing all that work themselves. But at the end of the day, I think there's room for both.

[00:05:38] Michael Epps Utley: I think search engines- Right ... are not gonna die or go away. I think they still play a role, and I think there's actually a market opportunity for somebody to say, "Hey, I just want to see search results. I'm trying to actually see the internet for a minute here."

[00:05:51] Announcer: Okay. "

[00:05:51] Michael Epps Utley: And not, not just avoid seeing the internet, but hey, I wanna see the internet."

[00:05:55] Michael Epps Utley: And so the way it's playing out is we're not seeing that AI is replacing search. We're [00:06:00] seeing it's adding something new. People were always bouncing around to three or four places to validate something before having to deal with, like, a person or engage in a conversation or buy something on an e-commerce website, but now we're seeing additional real estate be built- Mm-hmm

[00:06:15] Michael Epps Utley: for those interactions in the AI space. And so for us, this is like lava in a volcano in Hawaii. It's coming down the mountainside and building new islands.

[00:06:24] Richard Ellis: Right.

[00:06:25] Michael Epps Utley: And so I see it as more not just a switch.

[00:06:28] Richard Ellis: So additive, not a switch or a replacement. And then certainly, you know, I would assume this has major implications on just website strategy and website content, right?

[00:06:37] Richard Ellis: And so if I'm a CMO, what, what do I tell my team, you know, if, "Hey, we, we need to optimize for AI or optimize for findability"? What are some things that they need to start looking into right now and, you know, maybe think differently than the way we were thinking about website before?

[00:06:53] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah. So over the last few years, we've maintained, gosh, probably now for about 10 years, an annual audit that we [00:07:00] create with a couple of other agencies of SEO best practices.

[00:07:02] Michael Epps Utley: Okay. And so we do fresh research every year, and we update our list. Well, we're just adding some sections to the list So these AEO and GEO tactics are new things and they're different, but they go on the list of best practices that we apply. And yes, there are some trade-offs, but SEO's always been a game of change and evolution.

[00:07:24] Michael Epps Utley: And so we've never, there's never been just the way that SEO is done. It's always been evolving. And so for us, you know, we've been in business for 14 years, we've been evolving the whole time. I don't know, uh, of any agencies that haven't been sort of reacting to changes at Google with how they've, you know, put Gemini content up front.

[00:07:45] Michael Epps Utley: That's had a massive effect. But yeah, I think for CEOs and leaders, I'd say some of the hype around AI is a little bit, uh, of hyperbole. I don't think this is, uh, going to be the thing that replaces everybody's jobs with a dialogue box that can do [00:08:00] anything in the world for you and get it right on the first try.

[00:08:02] Michael Epps Utley: So I think it's gonna be a new tool set for your people to use. We're focused on creating and launching tools. We're actually, we've actually launched our own AI tool, and we're co-founding another one out there, but we're focused more on a world with a human in the loop. We don't see that these things are valuable, needed, or wanted to replace people.

[00:08:22] Michael Epps Utley: Hmm. I think it needed, valued, and wanted for us to support people and to help them do their jobs better with more confidence. And so in some places that's pretty important. A lot of these tech companies are big It's sort of a black box. Like, we don't know what goes on inside. And so I think being able to create things that enable website publishers, businesses to work in an environment where this mystery can have a massive impact on them, I think it's time for that power of that mystery to be offset and equip leaders.

[00:08:53] Michael Epps Utley: But I think they're gonna need their teams with them as they do this. I think it's gonna be a little different than what some of the hype [00:09:00] is pointing to.

[00:09:00] Richard Ellis: Got it. I, I was just having a conversation with another business leader this morning around just it seems like the, the last nine, six to nine months specifically, companies are coming to the realization that AI isn't the easy button and it's not, you know, the answer.

[00:09:15] Richard Ellis: You can't just throw AI at the problem and solve it and reduce force. You know, there needs to be people in the loop. So I'm encouraged to hear you say that. I think we're recognizing that, but make that a little bit real for us in terms of findability, uh, marketing strategy, and things like that. Where is it important to have those people in the loop, and how do they interact with AI?

[00:09:35] Richard Ellis: Yeah. There are

[00:09:35] Michael Epps Utley: a couple of really big capabilities that AI is generating into the digital ecosystem. The first one is LLMs. LLMs take all of the human information on the internet and say, "Hey, if you were gonna finish this sentence, how would you fin- finish it, internet?" And so it sort of meets you halfway on idea discovery and generation.

[00:09:56] Michael Epps Utley: So we found that that's good for some things like outlining, but don't we all [00:10:00] kinda hate the way it writes? Don't we all kinda hate the way it sounds? Uh, well, why is that? Well, it's because it's not human. And so we've still not gotten to the compute power of the human brain with an LLM. And so, I mean, we're talking about numbers that, you know, uh, one of my sons got a degree in math, but I don't.

[00:10:18] Michael Epps Utley: These are numbers where, you know, the calculating power of the human brain is sort of astronomical compared to what LLMs are actually doing, and so we need to remember that and remember what it is to be human. The other one is agentic work, and so that's another thing to have injected into the space.

[00:10:33] Michael Epps Utley: And so there are three big things that are happening that are surprising, these two new capabilities. And then third, a massive amount of public focus on those capabilities with the promise that it's gonna do these things. A lot of that conversation's been driven by a certain sector of- Venture capital and investment in new technology, and they've gotta believe it for it to be true.

[00:10:54] Michael Epps Utley: But I think they've over-believed it on our behalf, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not that, hey, these [00:11:00] things are terrible, and they're not as good, and we need to all kind of be disappointed and walk away from it. That's not how these things happen. What happens is there's a new technology, a few people get into podcasting, and then it kind of dies off for a while, and then it comes back huge.

[00:11:14] Michael Epps Utley: Well, what's happened during that time is there are stages of adoption and experimentation, and economies are being worked out. That's part of what everybody is seeing right now. Mm. There's a little quiet right now, a little bit of like, "Oh, may this, maybe this isn't the magic we expected." But what's happening underneath the surface, these companies like mine are building stuff saying, "Whoa, actually, no, we think this is changing everything."

[00:11:35] Michael Epps Utley: Mm-hmm. "We think humans are always gonna be there. We think you're gonna need those teams, but we think everybody's work is gonna look and feel different in a few months, and so let's continue to evolve." So the ch- pace of change is more radical than I think people are giving it credit, and it's gonna be more the same than people realize at the same time because it's gonna be different than the hype.

[00:11:56] Richard Ellis: As we continue to evolve, one of the things that you were sharing with [00:12:00] me, uh, in our prior conversation is w- we need to kind of see our brand the way the Internet sees our brand, right? And that's a whole new paradigm, a shift, and just a new way of thinking about the problem. Tell me a little bit more about that.

[00:12:14] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah, yeah. There are a lot of good tools out there. We use a lot of tools, and, uh, the people who use tools in companies, we're a marketing agency. Our customers are companies. They're businesses. A lot of companies serve customers that are also businesses, and others serve, you know, consumers, and others serve the government.

[00:12:33] Michael Epps Utley: All of these environments are being changed by this new set of tools entering the world. And so the way this is going to look and feel is just fundamentally different, and it's going to require taking a big step back. We're inside of a bubble in the conversation right now that's so close to the situation that I don't [00:13:00] think we're really getting a picture of what this looks like from a distance.

[00:13:04] Michael Epps Utley: If you take a, a step a little further back and think of it over a period of decades, you can see how when a new technology emerges, it changes everything downstream. I think broadband is a really good example to compare to AI. Broadband was kind of a quiet revolution. We thought of it as, great, I don't have to listen to that screechy sound, or now I can watch video.

[00:13:27] Michael Epps Utley: Well, my goodness, what broadband did was sparked the mobile revolution at the same time- Right ... because we start producing video, then we say, "Yeah, we could actually stream a little bit of data through these towers." And so all these different revolutions kind of bounce off each other. But I don't think we remember how big of an impact it was for desktop users for YouTube.

[00:13:45] Michael Epps Utley: And so, you know, the ability to consume video efficiently over the internet to a desktop computer was a massive thing that happened in marketing that nobody really thinks much about because these revolutions get a little bit, [00:14:00] uh, mundane when you're not in the middle of one. But yeah, I think, I think that's a good example.

[00:14:04] Michael Epps Utley: I mean, if you think about a company saying, "Should we make videos about what we do?" That seems silly. We should be asking the same question now, should we be in the AI space? The answer's gonna be yes. It's gonna be dominant, but it's gonna be messy in how it plays out. It's a Swiss Army knife topic compared to broadband, but it's just no less of a change than the massive, broad, deep change that reveals itself over time, the way broadband did in my mind.

[00:14:30] Richard Ellis: Right. Right. That brings up, uh, all kinds of memories. I used to have a 2400 baud modem un... in my closet over here next to me and, and I swear you look at that and you could literally hear the sound of the screeching dial-up modem. That's funny.

[00:14:44] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah. Yeah, I remember we were babysitting, my wife and I were babysitting for friends and, uh, or, or actually kind of like an older couple in our community who, you know, they were, they were a few years ahead of us and so we were the, the sort of college-age babysitter.

[00:14:57] Michael Epps Utley: And they had broadband in the office, [00:15:00] and they were like, "Yeah, if you need to do anything while you're here, you know, the Internet's there, computer's set up." And it was the first time I saw like a ca- a Comcast cable going into, you know, essentially making its way into a computer. And I sat there and I thought, and I was in probably first, second job in marketing career, I think I thought, "This is gonna change everything."

[00:15:17] Michael Epps Utley: Mm. "When consumers have what I have at the office, this is absolutely gonna change everything." It was one of those light bulb moments that I had a few months ago. Frankly. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:25] Richard Ellis: Really good. Well, one of the things you were sharing with me is, a- and it goes along to what you were just talking about in terms of taking a step back, taking a broader view.

[00:15:34] Richard Ellis: You're helping companies with having hundreds of sensors or data points out there to really get a better perspective of how you're seen and found and what the internet at large knows about you. And then it's not just having kind of absolute score and, "Hey, you know, we found you," but specifically in competition to your competitive ecosystem, which is really, if you get a ranking of 37, you [00:16:00] know, that sounds bad, but if your nearest competitor is 38 and below, then hey, you're pretty good, right?

[00:16:06] Richard Ellis: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about, you know, 'cause I know we've got listeners out there really kinda thinking tactically in terms of findability and scoring and prioritizing my to-do list of fixing some of those gaps, how some of these new insights need to be considered, right?

[00:16:21] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah. We, we see a gap. I think everyone right now is asking the wrong couple of questions.

[00:16:27] Michael Epps Utley: I think there's a big move right now to look at prompts as a new version of keywords in marketing and SEO, and I think that doesn't translate. The user experience in a chat dialogue is so customized to them that it's not really the same thing. And so the direction that a lot of conversation has been over the last few months and where tools are going, uh, a lot of the, the popular tools, is sort of equating prompts to like a, you know, "Hey, we can take this prompt and it's representative of a [00:17:00] category of prompts," and that's kinda like a keyword.

[00:17:02] Michael Epps Utley: I don't think that works. So I think that's a big change that's happening. The bigger change that's happening is I think we're gonna see a confederation or a breaking up- Of where people go first. Right. Google has been dominant. I think it will continue to be dominant in a lot of ways because of its massive user base.

[00:17:18] Michael Epps Utley: Think of like Microsoft at certain times had such a massive user base that nobody could offer something, even something free, like StarOffice or, or whatever, like a freeware version- Yeah ... couldn't beat Microsoft. Google's kind of in that place right now with AI. They're, they're kinda catching up in terms of making work- trying to, you know, have workable responses.

[00:17:39] Michael Epps Utley: But as things change, it becomes more complex. We can't live in what I call Pax Googliana, this era of peace that we've had where Google was so big and dominant as the homepage of the internet. I think ChatGPT is arguably homepage of the internet for a lot of people now. So is Grok. So as these tools become individual's homepage [00:18:00] or starting point, it's gonna break things up.

[00:18:02] Michael Epps Utley: So we can't really live in a tool ecosystem geared around one of those silos. Our tech, what we're excited about, what we're doing right now and have built and have rolled out and are now building and delivering is backing way up. So yeah, we've created 180 data points around a brand to look at it from the outside to see it the way the internet sees it.

[00:18:23] Michael Epps Utley: Yeah. And so the good thing here that we're doing, and I don't wanna make this feel like a sales pitch- Sure ... but I do think it's worth kind of, you know, the thought experiment here for somebody- Sure ... to kind of understand this. But we're taking 180 data points very distant from each brand, summarized into essentially 43 algorithms that we created and subroutines to see 10 different metrics, and then we're scoring any brand in those 10 categories and rendering a super score from that.

[00:18:50] Michael Epps Utley: So we can look at a company with 180 data points per month, and then each of their competitors, again, 180 data points for each of them, and then [00:19:00] run them through the workflow and the algorithm that we've created and give them an AEO super score. Yeah. And we're using AEO there as sort of the comprehensive name, AEO, GEO, SEO.

[00:19:11] Michael Epps Utley: And the good thing is the competitors don't give us access to their Google Analytics or any of their other credentialed tools to do analysis, so we don't need them for our clients either for this new service. We get them for other stuff we do. You know, Search Console's useful in a lot of ways. But looking from the outside at a brand Gives us the ability to see it the way the internet sees it.

[00:19:34] Michael Epps Utley: And so then all these tactics are changing in real time, but we're able to flip those in and out and use our algorithm, and then generate sort of an effort to upside formula and, uh, direct the tactics. But yeah, I think the, the thing that's important here is not Michael's got a new product he's excited about, but moving into a confederated space it's gonna require- Right

[00:19:56] Michael Epps Utley: areas of specialization that are disconnected from one another, and I [00:20:00] think it's gonna be hard for companies to keep up with that. And I saw a stat this morning, it looks like about 90% of companies and agencies are leaning to buy solutions to implement AI rather than build. And so I think everything's been really slow in the economy for the last year, and I think a lot of people have been building and facing that learning curve, and petering out, and now don't know what to do.

[00:20:25] Michael Epps Utley: And I'm ready to raise the flag and say, "Y'all, I've been building this stuff. I haven't slept a lot in the last year. You do not want this, Ricky Bobby."

[00:20:32] Richard Ellis: Right. "

[00:20:32] Michael Epps Utley: Trust me, you know, you do not want this, Dewey Cox. It's ... Stay away. This is ... You do not want this." And so the market's showing that. The complexity's proving itself out.

[00:20:42] Michael Epps Utley: About a nine to one ratio of build or buy. People are buying. There ... It's gonna be a specialized set of tools for these new areas, but it's a totally different environment for strategy now.

[00:20:54] Richard Ellis: That's really good. You got my wheels turning, you know, naturally. And I love just the specific insight of, [00:21:00] you know, keywords and search phrases and optimizing for that.

[00:21:03] Richard Ellis: I mean, that's outdated. That's an old playbook. It's not gonna get you where you need to go going forward. You really need to think broader than that, look at a lot more signals to really assess the situation a- and see your brand as the internet sees you, and certainly your tool can help us do that. When we think about our listeners, one of the things I try to give them is practical takeaways.

[00:21:22] Richard Ellis: A lot of times we've got, you know, leaders listening on their commute, streaming it wherever on the road. Are there any kind of three takeaways that you could just make it tangible and say, "Hey, when you get back to your desk, write these down, share this with your team." You know, it'll get you started off on the right foot.

[00:21:39] Michael Epps Utley: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I would say take a very broad approach to these strategies, and start to do them now. But stay broad Everything's changing in real time. There's sort of news out there today of Google allowing sort of a favor this website in AI results button. [00:22:00] So this is essentially the opposite of the back button for Google.

[00:22:03] Michael Epps Utley: Right. And so stay broad. And in our family, we have a saying, "Keep your knees bent." We... On boat day, if you're gonna walk while the boat's moving, keep your knees bent- ... 'cause the boat's moving. And so this is a keep your knees bent time. Don't have a quarterly meeting where you commit super hard to one new thing on ChatGPT, because they may flip it tomorrow based on a, a very dynamic situation.

[00:22:28] Michael Epps Utley: So I'd say stay broad in your tactics and keep your knees bent. Number two, I really do think companies that are building right now, especially marketing agencies, I don't think they're gonna replace. I think PR is gonna have a new role, but I think companies are gonna need solutions for scoring and, and managing.

[00:22:45] Michael Epps Utley: So I would say you're probably gonna end up buying over building, and so that's probably just a reality, so starting to explore that and see what that's gonna look like and developing relationships to do that is probably gonna be the way it's gonna play out rather than, "Hey, team member, [00:23:00] try really hard to figure out this big new thing that's changing the world for us."

[00:23:04] Michael Epps Utley: Um, you know, that's usually pushed to, you know, like a team member to kind of figure it out on their own and- Right ... bring it back to the company. That's not really good leadership. We need, we need to help guide and set people up for success. And AI is too big as a topic, of a topic for marketing coordinator, marketing manager, and frankly, marketing director.

[00:23:22] Michael Epps Utley: So this is a big thing. It's changing. It's very dynamic. It doesn't fit well with quarterly objectives. And so taking a role of getting involved rather than being distant from it, but getting into it now. And then third, I would say know what you know. Use your core metrics and things that matter, and avoid getting hung up in...

[00:23:41] Michael Epps Utley: People can call them vanity metrics, but I don't know, I say take in all the numbers, look at all the numbers. But I would say anything you've depended on the past, be careful right now. A lot of stuff is not quite worked out with this new space. So if somebody sees a number in Semrush that is like, "Hey, we only had [00:24:00] five or 10 whatever last month That, that's pl- it may not be complete reporting yet, so I don't know.

[00:24:06] Michael Epps Utley: At the end of the day, number three, uh, probably a better number three would be marketing can't fix bad operations going forward. Mm-hmm. So, focus on things that create and lock in a true cycle of customer satisfaction, and make sure your numbers are supporting solid delivery, and that your marketing people know how to make that solid delivery valuable for you- Right

[00:24:28] Michael Epps Utley: downstream. But whereas in the past marketing could shore up a delivery problem by keeping the inbox full of opportunities, now that reputation is absolutely gonna be front and center. I would tie your core numbers to that and watch out for any one number that is a brand-new metric that didn't exist six months ago, 'cause that stuff's all just forming up right now.

[00:24:50] Michael Epps Utley: So I don't know how articulate that is, but, uh, or articulate that is, but yeah, those are some things that come to mind.

[00:24:55] Richard Ellis: Those are good ones. I love it. And that's a great way to wrap up, so thank you for that. I'm [00:25:00] gonna take that back to my team and make sure we're firing on all cylinders there. As we do close, you've heard our episodes before, I wanna hear some other goodness outside of AEO, GEO.

[00:25:10] Richard Ellis: What's brought you a little bit of goodness in your life these days?

[00:25:12] Michael Epps Utley: Well, I'll tell you something. I've been married for 30 years, and my wife and I raised four boys here in East Nashville. I'm excited. I- there's a lot of talk about AI's gonna replace everyone's jobs. When I see where they are in their lives right now, and the things they're doing and who they are, I could not be more excited.

[00:25:31] Michael Epps Utley: Now, I miss them. We're empty nesters for the first summer ever right now. But my, my some goodness is adaptability and flexibility is just part of the human animal, and I really, really believe that the next generation's gonna do some amazing stuff. I think if they keep humans at the center of it, the tech companies will find people using it rather than revolting, uh, after they take all the, the work that we need to do.

[00:25:58] Michael Epps Utley: But yeah, that's some goodness for me. [00:26:00] I'm, I, I've got kids spread out in Texas, Utah, Chicago, and one here in college in Tennessee, but that's the goodness in my life and I'm excited to see what they're doing and, um, how things are playing out for them. Yeah.

[00:26:12] Richard Ellis: I love it. I love it. It, it's so easy for especially the younger generation to get a little bit anxious.

[00:26:17] Richard Ellis: I, I've certainly had, you know, anxiety-ridden conversations with my two daughters on, "What's my career gonna look like," right? And so a message from hope from Michael. I love it. Well, thank you for that and thanks for being here. Uh, it was a pleasure, and I really enjoyed our conversation.

[00:26:32] Michael Epps Utley: Me too. Thank you so much.

[00:26:33] Michael Epps Utley: We're thrilled about what we're doing. We couldn't be more excited to talk to people about it, so it's great to be with you today. Thank you, Richard.

[00:26:42] Announcer: Some Goodness is a creation of Revenue Innovations. Visit us at revenueinnovations.com and subscribe to our newsletter